A Matter of Faith

I have recently been engaged in a debate of sorts with a fellow named Jon over at Loyal's blog.

Saving Aenaes

I will address his last comments. It might be advantageous to read the whole thing, but the beginning is slightly cryptic. I will even admit that it is my own lack of intellectual prowess that may render his argument seemingly contradictory. Nonetheless, I shall strive to find some truth in the bit of mess we have.

A Wiser Man Than I:
Jon: You say: “When we are the biggest and most important things in lives--as you surely believe, after all, Man is God--we not only take ourselves far too seriously, but we lead such sad existences. Is there no wonder in a sunset or a baby's laugh?”

Now, c’mon, do you really think the man who proposed to set up his beach chair on the supposed truth of the believer takes himself too seriously?

Me: Actually I do. You have said that you are God. How can you not take yourself too seriously? The brevity of the rebuttal makes me think I have struck a nerve. You are certainly not completely heartless, but what wonder is there in a sunset or a baby's laugh without a God other than yourself. There is no wonder in the random chance that has given us life. It simply is. Facts are not beautiful, they simply are. It is only the meaning we put upon these facts that render them meaningful. To the Christian, the babies' laugh is wonderful because of the value that God--not us--has placed on human life.

Jon: I think it is the Christian nihilist who takes himself too seriously. The Christian nihilist (and I am talking about you here) cannot worship God, because God does not exist. So instead the Christian nihilist worships himself; the Christian nihilist worships his ability to put his faith in an illusion and finds solace only in comparing himself to the unbeliever. (What would Moses say if he knew you had become your own idol?) It is for this reason that you must claim that I lead a “sad existence.” If you did not continue to say things like this, to create some pitifully small meaning the only way you know how, by petty opposition—for, in this statement of yours you have mistakenly proven my entire point—you will be unable to convince yourself that you are happy. Unlike the Christian nihilist, I say “Yes!” to life in all its meaninglessness and absurdity. I say “yes,” and I am happier saying “yes” than I was in the 10 straight years of attending religious services every week in which I constantly drowned “No”.

Me: This is my biggest problem with your argument. You assume that God does not exist. That very well maybe, but as long as there are things that are unexplained by man, there is the possibility that He does in fact exist. How do you explain the preservation of bodies--the so-called uncorruptibles--of Christian saints? If mankind had answered every question in the universe, then you would be right. However, as long as there are these unknowns which float in the mist that transcends the scientific explanation, unbelief requires a certain amount of faith. I know that my belief in God does take a degree of faith. You seem reluctant to admit that your lack of faith is a leap of faith too.

Also, I do not feel vindicated by being better than the unbeliever. I am happy because I am in God's hands. I do not feel better than you. I feel sorry for you, and wish you know the peace and joy that I have. Slightly condescending perhaps, but the Christian motive is love. We wish all could one day share in the Father's glory. And aren't you the one worshipping himself? You are God after all. If there is no God, I only end up in your boat it would seem.

Jon: “It is only when we realize that we are not the most important thing in this world that our lives take on any meaning at all.”

That may be, but I am not willing to sacrifice my life in order to create a meaning which is unreal. Certainly, I will not sell myself into slavery at the hands of an imagined god just so I can sleep more easily at night.

Me: You assume that my belief is founded on the principles of something shaky such as Pascal's wager. This may be true for many you encounter, but I can assure you that, near as I can figure, Christianity accurately explains the world as it is. And once again, you believe that there is no meaning. First, thank you for tossing the heavy-handed rhetoric and just admitting what TomFoolery tried to get you to say. You said earlier, "I did not say, “our universe is a meaningless one.” I said, “our universe is an *inherently* meaningless one.” I will rephrase, since I am familiar with your linguistic difficulties." I'm going to assume that this latest take on things is a slip on your part. I forgive you.

Me: Furthermore, I assume you do sleep easier at night because you have found truth--or rather, a complete absence of truth. Don't you suspect your own motives? Or is it that you do not sleep well at night at all?

Jon: “For though those in power can exert meaning on our lives, and on aspects of it, it is a meaningless gesture. If life is "inherently" meaningless, it is surely all together meaningless. Quote whoever you will. When it comes down to it, you seem to have a mistaken philosophy.”

This quotation shows that you have not understood at all what I have been saying. That’s fine, what I am saying is not palatable to the Christian nihilist, because Christianity is idolatry and I am an iconoclast. I have explained myself three times and I will do so no longer. You are now free to wallow in your pseudo-pious, self-worshiping idolatry; you will not get any more trouble about it from me. I do not care if the Christian nihilist spends the rest of eternity denying life; for he is the last man, and I am going to live forever.

Me: That's right I have misunderstood you. I am not pseudo-pious, I am merely trying to engage in a conversation to arrive at truth. It's a pity you can't bring yourself to my intellectual level to explain yourself again. Perhaps, the problem is not in my ability to understand, but in your inconsistent philosophy. Just a thought. I am not sure what you mean by living forever. I do plan on living forever in heaven with Christ, but that is part of my faith. I am unfamiliar with the facet of the atheist creed that allows him to live forever.

Jon: God is dead; it is the Christian who has killed him, and it is I who is joyfully dancing upon the grave.

Me: This is a pretty poor metaphor. Yes, I get the Nietzke reference. But if God does not exist, the Christian could not have killed him at all. Keep joyfully dancing. May your belief that you haev found the truth serve you well, but remember that it is only that. Reason is a very valuable tool, but when tossing around the mysteries of this universe, it is not enough. At some point we must put stock in something. I have come down where I will. I hope your choice serves you as well as I believe and know that mine will.