tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10835776.post4062551547883577789..comments2023-10-30T07:45:43.656-04:00Comments on Thoughts and Ideas: Faith and "logic", a follow-upA Wiser Man Than Ihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02405864709965908573noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10835776.post-45981990481330566952008-03-17T20:53:00.000-04:002008-03-17T20:53:00.000-04:00Hi again, and thanks for the follow-up entry. Sor...Hi again, and thanks for the follow-up entry. Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. I was away for part of the weekend, and then I had to think through the post and organize my thoughts. <BR/><BR/>To take on Catholicism in a blog is a bit, shall we say, ambitious of me. I'm certain that much of the below would benefit from further elaboration -- and some of it probably needs qualification -- but I'll just have to trust you and your readers to identify my obscurities and overstatements, which I will correct as best I can.<BR/><BR/>My attitude toward religion is animated by a tension between, on the one hand, my belief that most theological claims are nonsense, with the majority of the remainder flat-out wrong, and, on the other hand, my belief that it has been in the media of religious thought and practice that humankind has, for many centuries, reflected upon and articulated its highest ideals and most noble aspirations. So, whatever is to be made of this, at least it cannot be said that I don't take the claims of religion seriously, in my own idiosyncratic way.<BR/><BR/>To begin with a point of agreement, I heartily endorse your closing sentiment that we should strive, not just to be correct in our beliefs, but to properly understand *why* we are correct -- or, in cases of error, to be able to provide at least a sympathetic account of our mistaken beliefs. <BR/><BR/>In your post, you seem to offer two distinct arguments to motivate belief in the primary tenets of Catholicism. <BR/><BR/>First you cite Chesterton to the effect that thought without religious faith leads to a kind of nihilistic skepticism. But this, I would contend, is simply false. There are plenty of atheists and other non-Catholics who enjoy fulfilling lives and lucid ethical relations with their communities. It would have to be shown that these people fail in some crucial way to realize the logic inherent in their position. The Catholic apologist would then have to present additional evidence and further argument to establish Catholic thought as not only immune to these self-destructive tendencies, but also as the (unique?) solution to the challenges they pose. <BR/><BR/>Your second defense invokes miracles as evidence for the truth of Catholicism. I find this unsatisfactory for a lot of reasons. Many religions circulate stories about the supernatural to support the truths of their various, incompatible doctrines. Certain social situations and psychological conditions provide ample incentives for more or less self-conscious confabulation: unique contact with the divine exercises a powerful hold on the human imagination, and the idea promises considerable power to those with the rhetorical zeal to make their case. <BR/><BR/>I think you agree that testimony about miracles -- historical or contemporary -- is insufficient to establish the truth of Catholicism or any other religion. It is not reasonable to attribute events to divine agency without compelling, independent reasons to believe in such an agent. If I'm wrong about your position, we can discuss it further. (I recognize that the blanket aspersions of my previous paragraph are just that, blanket aspersions. A real argument would probably take the form of a case for theoretical parsimony and the explanatory power of scientific naturalism.) <BR/><BR/>So, to return to what I've selected as our original point of agreement, I just don't see the evidence that you agree we need. You may feel equally confident about the stability of the ground beneath your feet and the truth of the Resurrection, but the former is subject to constant experiential confirmation in a way that the latter is not; subjective certainty does not establish objective truth. Catholicism, I continue to maintain, requires an arbitrary and irrational assent to external authority. <BR/><BR/>Although I agree that Catholicism has effectively served many of its adherents as a map in the way Chesterton so eloquently describes, the world that it depicts is no longer the world in which we live, which is home to a diverse array of incompatible religious and secular traditions. It is, as I see it, our responsibility to critically assess these conflicting claims as best we can in order to make the world into a place where everyone has a chance to enjoy a dignified and fulfilling life. <BR/><BR/>Best regards,<BR/>PJPJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03211470393162983933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10835776.post-86961500865855899662008-03-16T20:52:00.000-04:002008-03-16T20:52:00.000-04:00Uh oh. Looks like the spammers are back.Uh oh. Looks like the spammers are back.A Wiser Man Than Ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02405864709965908573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10835776.post-2715908340640778332008-03-15T16:43:00.000-04:002008-03-15T16:43:00.000-04:00I honestly don't read Chesterton as often as I quo...I honestly don't read Chesterton as often as I quote him, if that makes any sense. <BR/><BR/>I've been reading other things lately, but if I'm posting about apologetics, I usually fall back on Mr. GKC. <BR/><BR/>I've not read Wilbur, nor, do be honest, heard of him. Which work of his would you recommend?A Wiser Man Than Ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02405864709965908573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10835776.post-17099551707251030412008-03-15T15:31:00.000-04:002008-03-15T15:31:00.000-04:00excellent debate, rarely does one observe the nece...excellent debate, rarely does one observe the necessary attention to nuance and weight. However, to much Chesterton can be like to much of anything. Do you ever read Ken Wilbur?troutskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16020298501632120830noreply@blogger.com